OAFC BBS - All Topics: Archive: Dotel
| By givedaddy5 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:30 pm:|
Is he coming back next year?
Do any of you really want him back?
In my opinion there has to be a better alternative than him. I know compared to Rhodes he was the 2nd coming of Eck but you can't be confident with Octavio in there. At least I am not.
| By beanehead on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:43 pm:|
Well, that's just it: Is there a better alternative?
Let's remember, since Eck, we have not had a sure-fire, 3-up/3-down type closer. Billy Taylor, Jason Isringhausen, Billy Koch, Keith Foulke (the best of the bunch), and now Octavio Dotel...they've ALL given me the willies in the 9th.
The best closers right now are Mariano Rivera, Eric Gagne, John Smoltz and they're not going anywhere. The best closers are on contending teams. And they're expensive. I suppose the Marlins might trade Benitez, but his history is spotty at best.
This year's FA class includes Troy Percival, Trevor Hoffman, Robb Nen (ha!), Jose Mesa...would you rather have any of those guys versus Dotel?
Our best hope is to sign Dotel to a one-year and hope one of our young guys emerges (Garcia or Street). Dotel, like Rhodes, is probably better suited as an 8th inning guy.
| By whoknows77 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:51 pm:|
Pecival, Benitez, Lima, Alfonseca, and Nen will be free agents. I'm sure we can all agree, Jose Lima and 'ol Six Fingers aren't welcome to close games in Oakland. Percy and Benitez will command serious loot - and most likely aren't worth it.
Nen might be worth a look, but probably will command too much money to justify the risk on his health.
Unless BB can pull out some more magic and find the next great closer at Goodwill, Dotel is the best that's out there.
Maybe available: Urbina, Guardado (but if he is, we probably don't want him)
| By givedaddy5 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:55 pm:|
I would love Hoffman. I would take him over Dotel in a heartbeat. Not crazy about Percival but at least he has proven to be a very good closer throughout his career.
They need re-invent a closer like they did with Izzy
| By diamond_lil on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 12:57 pm:|
You can own the best precision tools in the world. If you don't know how to use the tools, they will not work for you and give you the desired results.
Macha doesn't know how to handle a pitching staff nor a pen, so I am not going to worry about what pitchers he will have next year.
Sorry but I'm still too bitter to participate in any meaningful discussion. Especially because I'm watching the playoffs and listening to Joe Morgan trashing Oakland at the first opportunity he found. argghghghgg!@!#$@#%%%
| By kkdaz on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:12 pm:|
Dotel should stay one more year so he can mentor Garcia. They seem to have a good relationship, and they can work on their location issues together.
| By whoknows77 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:14 pm:|
SD has a club option for 2005 - I wouldn't think they'd let Hoffman go.
You get to watch the game? I'm so jealous.
| By whoknows77 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:18 pm:|
I think it's pretty clear, if we bunted more - we'd have made the playoffs
| By deajay on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:36 pm:|
You know, I don't know what all the griping is about Dotel. Let's do a little comparison here. Foulke had 32 saves with 7 blown. Dotel had 36 saves with 9 blown, btw. the NL & AL. In summary, Foulke blew 18%, while Dotel blew 20% ... miniscule difference. FURTHER ... Dotel in his first year as a closer. Secondly, he changes leagues midseason, coming to a league he has never played in. For the $ (always the bottom line) they aren't going to do better. Figure it will cost them btw. $4-5mil for one year. Just who would everybody suggest they get or even can get, for that kind of $? And don't say Nen or Percival ... those guys have health history problems and not even worth sniffing. Some team will likely (stupidly) sign them to multi-year deals ... and regret it, early on.
Actually, the A's are in an ideal situation with re to their closer; they can sign him for one year ... no muss, no fuss ... while hopefully Garcia/Street will be ready in '06 and if they ... or one of them ... shows he is ready next year, then they can always deal Dotel. Actually, it could be a win win situation.
I think what irritates most people is he hardly goes 1-2-3. Well, the bottom line, is saving the game ... so we have to take a few more Rolaids ... we did with Izzy and Koch, too. Besides, the only way teams are going to get 1-2-3 closers is if Eckersley or Fingers come out of retirement or they can get Rivera.
| By beanehead on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 01:54 pm:|
Thanks for basically saying the same thing I did. Now I feel smart.
Just kidding, DJ.
FYI, Fingers was rarely 1-2-3 as he generally pitched more than one inning.
| By deajay on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 02:01 pm:|
Yeh, Rollie was unique. Originally a starter who couldn't start because his nerves overtook him. There'll never be another closer like him because so many of his saves were indeed 2 and 3 innings. Unlike today's starters ... or those who followed him ... he was a closer who did it with starter stuff and finesse as opposed to power, power, power.
| By bigthree17 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 02:40 pm:|
Isn't Doug Jones still available?
I've said all along I'd like Dotel back next year. He's proven himself to be a top-notch set-up guy and a decent (not great) closer.
As a side note, I will say that switching leagues midseason usually helps a pitcher, so that wasn't a hurdle for him to overcome. In Dotel's case, though, it's not like he was fooling anybody. Heat, heat, and more heat, with an occassional slider mixed in, so his performance probably wasn't benefited from switching leagues too much.
| By asch on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 04:55 pm:|
good point deajay!
| By sactodavey on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 05:05 pm:|
Dotel has that no fear mentality that is good and if he does get rakes you can tell it never gets to him he has the fun personality that just shakes it off , this guy will be much better next yr you watch.
if we had him from april on many would be driving home right now from game 1.
| By rayfossefan on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 05:21 pm:|
I'm all for getting Doug Jones back. The guy could be 60 and people still couldn't hit him.
| By deajay on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 06:38 pm:|
Oh yeh, and I forgot. (sactodavey's post reminded me.) Dotel is one of the few players on our team who shows any emotion. By my count they made 3 ... Kotsay, McLemore and Dotel.
| By rayfossefan on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:06 pm:|
deajay, Byrnes doesn't show emotion? I think Crosby and Swisher do as well.
I like the direction this team is going - Crosby and Swisher are a little different from Chavez and Hatty, who may say their mind to the media, but don't on the field. I see Swish and Crosby being quite fiery for us!
I wish Hudson would get back to that. When he came up I remember the staring cotnest with Nomar and the yelling at Matt Lawton. Bring it back Huddy!
| By deajay on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:11 pm:|
Oops! My bad for overlooking Byrnes.
| By jtraeg on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 07:31 pm:|
I hope we learn from our mistakes and keep dotel. If we had him at the beginning of the year, we would be in the playoffs right now. Also he is young and can really sling it, plus even though he can occasionally give up the longball, he does not walk guys like koch or izzy usually did. Prices for guys like him are at an all-time high now, we should sign this guy before the giants do. All those dudes that were just listed either are on the downhill, wild or way to expensive to go anywhere near us.
| By okplayer on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 08:12 pm:|
Thank you DJ. If we have dotel for the entire season, we WALTZ to a division title. Unfortunatley, I think there's a different perception with regard to Dotel vs. Foulke. It seems like Dotel lost a lot of his blown saves whereas Foulke ended up with with NDs or Ws(Billy Koch style). Does anybody have the stats on this?
| By whoknows77 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 09:00 pm:|
We were 3-3 in Dotel BS in 04
We were 4-1 in Foulke BS in 03
Foulke was much better than Dotel while pitching for the Green and Gold, it wasn't even close and it has nothing to do with the results after their bs.
Dotel's era was basically double Foulke's
4.09 v 2.08 (2.17 this year)
Foulke is an elite closer, in the same league as Rivera and Gagne. Dotel is an unproven, but probably good closer. He's still much better than most, but he's no Foulke.
| By deajay on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 10:30 pm:|
Foulke may be an "elite" closer, but he is NOT in Rivera's or Gagne's league. Also, is a closer with a lower era than another closer really that much better when their blown saves are about the same?
| By bigthree17 on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 10:41 pm:|
I agree. Gagne has something like a 97% conversion rate over the last couple of years. Rivera's one of the greatest of all-time, and the absolute greatest postseason closer ever. Foulke blew 7 saves this year alone.
Foulke is a great closer, but not among the elite class of Rivera, Gagne and Smoltz. I'd put him with the next class of guys, like Billy Wagner or Francisco Cordero. Dotel is in the next tier of guys.
The next great closer? Brad Lidge.
| By deajay on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 10:43 pm:|
Yeh, I forgot about Smoltz. And I agree about Brad Lidge; he is very impressive.
| By garyn on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 11:30 pm:|
There is a big difference between blowing a one run lead and blowing two or three run leads. There is also the issue of being able to pitch multiple innings. Anyone have a Foulke vs Dotel comparison in these areas?
| By asch on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 05:27 am:|
But the biggest difference is money and I think if you compare Foulke and Dotel's numbers this year, you'd say that with the BS etc, that Foulke is NOT work xmillion more than dotel....or atleast the seasoned A's fan would realize that I think right?
You could say, "who would you rather have?" but when it comes to cost, you know who we would have.
| By garyn on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 09:56 am:|
Factoring cost in, perhaps we should consider Dustin Hermansson who is a free agent, made $800,000 this year, would likely come cheaper than Dotel, and saved 17 out of 20.
Dotel at 2.8 mil is a bargain, I agree, but Dotel at what he may command this off season may or may not be.
| By sactodavey on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:06 am:|
what so funny is you got a payroll of what 60 mill yet for a couple 2 more a yr the diff of Foulks salary to Dotel this yr or rhodes for that matter we keep Foulk and win 10 more games hm..... kinda funny when you look at it this way.
i never understood this kind of thinking its like baking a cake with all the ingrediants except you use a little cheaper subtitute and get not the right taste, for just a little more $$$ we are in the playoffs with all the work of assemblying 95% of this teasm payroll ect.... this owner gets cheap and we lose 3rd best releiver then we lose 28 blown games at which 15 were wins with Foulk so sad but bad simple buisness.
| By calig on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:49 am:|
Even if we had offered Foulke more... Then Boston would have upped the ante. We could not outbid them unless Foulke really wanted to stay.
| By deajay on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:53 am:|
Hermanson? Hardly. Dotel will probably cost the A's btw. $4-5mil for the one year. I'm betting he will be signed for the one year. I wouldn't take any bets on Durazo though.
| By diamond_lil on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:55 am:|
This tidbit comes from Ratto's column, posted at off field matters by simplefan...
Now Schott is easy to understand here. The A's make great scads of cash every year (more than $17 million in 2003 when you factor in revenue sharing and the luxury tax), and because there are only two of them, and Schott's the 50 percent of the ownership that votes, point the finger at him when the A's come up short. They didn't commit enough money to the bench and bullpen ... again.
But what Ratto didn't mention is that Schott owns the concessionaire business of the coli (food and parking) and that doesn't count in the baseball revenue and I'm not sure, but I think the concessionaire business belongs to Schott alone and not to Hofmann.
Schott needs to realize he is not going to realize his pipe dream of moving the team to his hometown and SELL!!!!!!!!
Frankly, it is getting to a point where every time he threatens to move and refuses to commit to doing business in Oakland, more and more fans, myself included, are getting ready to say to him GO...MOVE and don't let the door hit your @$$ on the way out!!!!
Schott is doing to Oakland and fans what Bud Selig did in Montreal. He is alienating the fandom to the point of extinction and then he will sell the team to the highest bidder.
Damn you Schott, I hope the money burns a huge hole in your dirty pockets!!!!!
| By whoknows77 on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 11:03 am:|
2 of Foulke's 7 blown saves were in multi-innings efforts where he entered in the 8th with runners on. Smoltz, Gagne, and Rivera only have one between them.
Foulke was used differently - asked to pitch in more difficult situations.
Also, is Gagne really that much more valuable because he lost tied games instead of blowing leads?
I wouldn't disagree that Foulke isn't one of the top 3 - but he's closer to them than to the next group. When looking at closers - due to the small sample size - you cannot simply consider one season. How many flash in the pan closers have we seen in the last few years - one good/great year and then never to be heard from again? I believe Lidge will be a stud, but he and Cordero are far from proven.
| By deajay on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 11:29 am:|
Please ... I never intended to intimate that Dotel was on the same plain as Foulke ... I was comparing this year's saves and blown saves figures because there seemed to be so much bitching about him, when in fact, he did not do a bad job, at all. Further, if you check, you'll see Dotel also pitched some multiple innings. And, if I recall, that is where he blew a couple of the multi-run games. He proved to be much more effective with a one run lead than multiple, for some reason. And as I questioned before ... concentration? I also notice that the last few weeks he was not asked to pitch more than one inning. May be because of his tendonitis, I don't know. Personally, it seems evident that he is probably not one of those multiple inning closers ... some aren't. It would have been nice for us were he, because I certainly didn't have a reliable setup man.
He is certainly not in their long range plans and will merely serve as a bridge to get to (present) prospects. But for the $ you can bet he'll be better than any other options for '05. They need a closer next season and I'm betting Beane will view signing him for the one year for more $ to be a lot safer than to shop again for another closer ... not to be found ... for any less than Dotel will cost them.
| By deajay on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 11:31 am:|
Because "I" didn't have a reliable set up man? Well, I think it's time to go get something to eat ... that must be it, typing on an empty stomach doesn't work for me, I guess.
| By whoknows77 on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 12:59 pm:|
I agree the Dotel is underrated and would be a good resign. I have defended him on numerous occasions.
Excuse me for the misunderstanding, but I'm sure you can understand the confusion when you say there is a "miniscule difference" between their performances.
Dotel was a multi-inning setup man before being converted this year. This season tied with his rookie year for the fewest innings of his career. For nearly 300 innings over 2001-2003, Dotel was the best setup man in the game, posting a 2.33 era and striking out 360.
If we could get him for 3 years - 10 mil, it'd be a great investment.
| By garyn on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 01:19 pm:|
Dotel would be worth 3 years for 10 million, but I seriously doubt we would get him for that amount.
| By whoknows77 on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 02:18 pm:|
Why not? He'd only get about 4-4.5 in arbitration, that's more or less the proper discount for the long term contract. He's not young - he'll turn 31 on Thanksgiving.
| By garyn on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 04:07 pm:|
3 years for 10 mil is about what Rhodes and Mecir got - it is premium set up man money. Closer money would be more in the 4 to 5 mil per year range (and up).
| By whoknows77 on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 04:31 pm:|
It's a little bit more than they got - Mecir's contract was also signed in a different economy. After what is generally looked upon as a poor season as a closer, Dotel would probably be happy to get premium setup money over several years, instead of getting crappy closer money for probably only one year.
yeah, but if you all are right in your lambasting of dotel, then no one in their right mind would pay him that kind of cash, right? if he gets it, obviously someone would see him for what he is - a very good late inning pitcher. with a full year, i can see him at the francisco cordero level.
| By deajay on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 06:00 pm:|
Actually, if I recall correctly. Mecir's contract called for a raise to $5mil if the A's should make him closer.
I think it will be very interesting to see how Cordero fares next season. Especially if the Rangers go into the season as possibles to win the division. The pressures are different when that happens. Of course, the Rangers will have to add some starters; and then there is the question as to whether they can keep Soriano, which seems to be in doubt. Also, chances are they will lose their hitting coach who is going to test the market. And one of the things I read somewhere ... don't ask me where ... is talk about a deal with the Mets ... Reyes for Soriano.
Course, now that they've got ARod, I would not be surprised to see Gorgie Porgie try to get Soriano back.
| By eyleenn on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 09:20 pm:|
| By bigthree17 on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:28 pm:|
Yeah, where did Hermanson come from? Do we really want a guy who walked THREE straight batters in the 9th inning of their biggest game of the season, to blew a 3-0 lead? No thanks.
| By beanehead on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:40 pm:|
Well, I give Hermanson credit. He was a closer by circumstance in the middle of the second half because every other option sucked so bad. He pitched in 5 straight games leading to that meltdown in LA. He always played with intensity.
Of course, none of that makes him an ideal closer (and I don't want him in that role on the A's either). But it does make him a gamer. Every team could use a guy like him in the dugout (or bullpen). We're lucky we've got a couple of guys like him on the A's-- Kotsay and Huddy. We could use a couple more.
Having watched the A's play this second half, I'll take heart over talent. I want to see our guys lay it all out on the field. Pitch in five straight games and not bitch about it (ahem, Chris Hammond).
Oh yeah, great for Hermanson to plunk Kent. That's a real teamate.
| By beanehead on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 11:48 pm:|
Oh yeah, speaking of gamers...he might be a nutcase, but I'll always have respect for Jose Guillen for the guts he showed in the ALDS last year. Ted Lilly, too.
| By beanehead on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:46 pm:|
One thing to think about: Eric Gagne LOST his arbitration case after last season (when he won the Cy Young) and had to settle for $5mil. So with that precedent, I think Dotel will probably be closer to $3mil than $5mil in arbitration.