No end in sight
OAFC BBS - All Topics: Archive: No end in sight
| By yc2578 on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 04:04 pm:|
Streak is at eight. Red Sox are coming in next so barring a miracle the streak will go to eleven. Let's hope they don't reach the ultimate embarrasment by tying the club record of 14 in San Francisco a week from now.
The A's have to win AT LEAST ONE game against the BoSox. I do't want to go into a series with SF with a double diget losing streak!
hope all you Beane lovers choke these losses down your throats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the A's are a laughing stock of baseball .
| By kevink on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 05:08 pm:|
What does beane have to do with it this time sacto?
Going into this year, we all knew this team was not primed for a world series run. Most of us put them at around .500 or a little better. Even Beane I don't think expected much from the 05 A's. The only way we would have made a run at the division is if EVERYTHING went right, plus a miracle trade and deadline pickup.
Add in the Chavez meltdown, the Crosby injury, the Harden injury, the Durazo disappearance, the Kendall slow start/adjustment to AL, the Calero injury....you get the idea, this team is far worse than anyone could have imagined, and to pin this on Beane is just baffling to me.
| By asch on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 05:25 pm:|
I know we all joke about this, but please, logically and coherently, tell me why this streak is due to Beane's folleys.
Let me point a few things out to you to make a point.
1. Going into this season everyone was worried about the SP. Well, overall, I think the SP has exceeded expectations. Sure, there have been a couple meltdowns, but overall, I don't think we could have gotten much better.
2. Our offense is the problem. That said, the Mulder/Huddy trades had NOTHING to do with that. We did not trade away our top hitter - we traded away 2 good pitchers. BUt, what the hell does that matter when we can't score runs or hit with RISP or leave a ton of guys on base?? The hitters we have are not producing - if they would produce to what they are capable of, we are most likely atleast 5 games over .500.
3. It's a mix mess of what's happening: generally our offense lets us down - if they score runs, it's our SP giving up a ton of runs to where our 4-6 runs is not enough. Shit happens - Dotel will blow a save here and there.
If you are going back to Miggy/Foulke/Giambi/Damon etc as to why we are not winning - that's extremely myopic. This team far exceeded where they should have been last year. This year was the question mark - we could have won 90 or won 70 - most of that question mark was the Starting staff. Again, if we take the same offense as last year (which is close to what we have except for Swish in RF instead of Dye - who's not playing due to injury now anyways) and add all the other injuries etc and more importantly just the fact that we are not hitting, what is your cause for this mess??
Macha is a moron - he's not helping. But we all know what Durazo is capable of, that hattey can hit .270 with 15 homers and take walks and get on base and that kendall is a career .300+ hitter! We know Chavey is not quite this bad. If those 4 guys are hitting, we are winning more, flat out. If those guys are hitting, this team looks very very good! But their not and it's not Beane's fault for that.
Please, please please - listen to reason and read this post 3 times and tell me how I am wrong.
Add into that that Crosby has not played ONE game and that's a power bat in the lineup. Is that Beane's fault? Should he not have had him play any spring games cause he knew he'd be HBP?
I am NOT attacking you - I just don't understand what you are saying. Please help me understand.
| By kevink on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 05:26 pm:|
asch, we agree almost completely on this.
I'm too lazy to look it up...but I'd like to know if Kendall has thrown out one base runner so far this season.
and has Macha ever called for a pitch-out this season?
| By asch on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 05:43 pm:|
I think it's one Lil!
I know there was one he nailed but the ump called him safe before the play was completed - he was actually out....
I see he's 5 of 29 - not including today probably. I think he's second to worst in the AL, slightly better than Varitek.
This team is a representation of beane period, beane does not play in the field but he is the one who put this team together.
do you think schott alone made the choice NOT to bid for Miggy? no way beane had meetins with him and no doubt was the fianl say on the direction of signing him, my thinking is this with chavez still 2 yrs from FA we sign Miggy and worry about chavez during the FA yr period, this is how it should have been done.
now Huddy trade he was the true backbone of the staff period you pay the $$$ and sign him and no doubt if schott was told we gotta keep this guy he would have at least had discusssions with him which DID NOT HAPPEN so you sign huddy and again you have 2 whole yrs to put a value on Mulder and zito but at least it gives you 2 yr stop gap for both Chavez and and the 2 of 3 starters .
sat i had an extra ticket and saw the banjo guy needin a ticket so i gave him my extra in the process of goin in we had a good discussions and he even said beane was so stupid they had the guys under cheap contracts this yr and another yr with Mulder, and he goes to many games as it is even though he looks funny he is very knowledgable and no dummie he even said it was appparant Mulder's arm was tired from all the over work macha gave him first half os season , something i said to last yr if they incl beane would have given him 2 weeks off he might have come on strong in playoffs or last week of season.
the point being is this we did not even negotiate with Miggy or huddy and at least sign those guys and take it 1 yr at a time there was no need for a full panic attack and trading 3 of 5 starters or even not taliking to Tejada.
beane loves the freggin spotlight and uses the venue of the A's to make trades and manuver things that DO NOT HAVE OT BE MADE for the sake of ESPN and moneyball books, if he had played it safe we still might have a fun team with most of stars cause the new owners might be negotiating with Hudddy and chavez right now with Miggy signed.
also beane put himsefl in a postion to have to get kendall because of the suppose bad signings last yr with rhodes and redmand, this team is a reflection on beane period and it looks like most of the players are going to BOMB OUT , beane was the guy who tried to make rhodes a closer now look at him a very good middle or set up guy right where he belonged, no people beane is the cancer let me tell you we had a great team if he would have playeds it 1 at a time our FA could have been signed and juggled to at least keep 3 of them together or 4 but we sell them even before the 6 yrs is out or not even negotiate with them foolish now we got shit for alllstar players so yes this losss is beanes fault he threw the dice when we did not need to throw them.
this is what wee got for Mulder and Huddy and miggy my god the best overall player in baseballl we had him for 11 mill a yr geeeze!!! now we pay the same to a guy who playes no better the a bech guy.
Asch is totally on point.
We should also remember that our offense sucked for most of last year too. Our overall offensive stats last year were a little inflated by the massive output we had against the AL Central during the interleague games, particularly at home. We all thought our offensive output would improve this year with better production from 3B, SS, 2B, C and RF than last year. There was no way to anticipate that we'd all say to ourselves, "oh man, we're screwed" when Bobby Kielty is forced to leave the game.
The bottom line is we'd probably have a couple more W's right now with Huddy and Mulder than with the guys we got for them, but it's not like we'd still be any good with the offense performing the way it is. In fact, it'd probably be that much more frustrating, and we'd be spending our time talking about who we'd be trading Huddy to right now.
| By yc2578 on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 05:54 pm:|
Tejeda is the best overall player in baseball? Ooookaaay.
As for lil's pitchout question, I think he has called one this season. He called two last year. Frank Robinson called one and Felipe called two last year as well. On the opposite end of the spectrum Dusty Baker called 56 and Lloyd McClendon called 55.
Sacto. I truly, truly doubt that BB tried to talk Schott out of re-signing Miggy, Huddy or anyone else. Schott gives BB a budget, and BB has to make the best possible team out of it. Not only for this year, but for years to come.
Rhodes is probably still a decent middle-guy, but a team like ours can't afford to pay $3-4M/year to a middle-reliever, get it?
Beane is the cancer? What other team with our comparable payroll has been a perennial playoff contender the last 5-6 years? At best, the Twins, and they've only done it since 2002. And that's it. Without BB, there's a good chance we spend the last five years like the Brewers, Devil Rays, Royals, etc.
And no, a higher payroll doesn't guarantee you playoff success. But it sure gives you a helluva lot better chance.
| By oakchick on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 06:06 pm:|
To add to Big3's poinT, please also note that although the Twinkies are a "low-payroll" team, they are actually the Yankees of their division for a few years. So they have been beating up on the little guys, while we have been beating up the big boys during our 4 year run of success.
another case in point Jose gullen , we trade a good #5 pitcher for him and he showed true grit character a good trade and he even said he wanted to stay, yet we could have hade him for what 3 mill a yr now signing him would have made this a good trade and a steal but Beane does not even neg with him a beane motto so he is on the verge of back to back 30 hr 90 rbi seasons .290 ave now where you gonna get a guy who has his desire for that kind of $$$?
other GMS are making good trades and stealing players while the guys were gettin are either hurt or bustin , take chicago gettin hermanson from the gnats, 19 innn 8 saves era is zero.
what about the twins? they got Nathan from the gnats and he has been lights out last and this yr , 2 good trades by other teams so beane is NOT the genieus we all think but a guy set in his ways who has made many BAD moves or been out moved by other gm's its just that his gamble trades in the beginning turned out so we gave the the GENIUS title and he ran with it , but time has proved he is just a fraud.
BTW if we have had huddy mulder and Miggy we prob be 23 and 14 in 1st place instead of the opposite
we prob would have won division last yr too.
now when these players do not turn out and this team does not pan out for many yrs many will say "man i wish we would have gone for it" just a few more yrs because even 2 more yrs of playoff baseball will be more yrs in the playoffs then we will get for 5-10 yrs.
i do not see any good players commin up in system to make a diff in next 2 yrs does any of you?
i think we will rotate to being a very mediocre or a bad team for a long time, i would rather have had 2 more yrs of glory then 5 yrs of .500 baseball.
| By okplayer on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 06:37 pm:|
sacto's right and name a better player in the game right now yc than miggy! endurance, enthusiasm, and production. suck on that pipe and smoke it chavez.
i puke on bb for his massive ego.
| By rocket on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 06:41 pm:|
Sacto is on a roll tonight, full of piss and
| By asch on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 06:45 pm:|
The one thing I will agree with you on is Guillen - I think a lot of us are stumped (Besides the fact he may have killed people on our team with his anger management problems) as to why we did not retain him. Certainly, that would have helped our OF situation - except that we got Kotsay instead (a Centerfielder and leadoff guy we desperately needed) and Byrnes was a bargain for production and cost at the time ($300k or so?).
Listen, Beane has made mistakes, yes. But we were one game away from the playoffs for the 5th straight year last year with pretty much THIS offense. The offense is not producing - it's their fault - they are all slumping. If our team was hitting the way they should, we would be in the hunt no problem.
Yes, BB put the team together, but this team is NOT this bad...it's just not.
Bringing up Miggy and Huddy etc, - I just don't see the point! WE all love Huddy and Mulder, but we could not keep them with this budget. And that's the budget the OWNER sets up, not the GM>
| By yc2578 on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 07:20 pm:|
"sacto's right and name a better player in the game right now yc than miggy! endurance, enthusiasm, and production. suck on that pipe and smoke it chavez."
okplayer I know you're Miggy's #1 fan but the best player in baseball? Need come back down to Earth on that one. If he's so great why couldn't he manage a better OPS than Chavez last year?
On the subject of Jose Guillen, do we all forget this is a guy who was such a clubhouse cancer that his team dumped him in the middle of a pennant chase last season and were desperate to trade him this past offseason? How do we know the same exact scenerio wouldn't have played out with the A's last season if Guillen was re-signed?
| By yc2578 on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 07:41 pm:|
I need to also make a point about the dangers analyzing based on one season, let alone just six weeks into the year. I remember in 2003 people on here complaining about Beane trading away the ROY in Angel Berroa and not holding on to him to replace Tejada. Two years later Berroa appears to be the second coming of Pat Listach.
All you have to look to is this year. Bobby Kielty leads the team OBP and has been the only guy on the team hitting well in May. Ted Lilly has an ERA of 10.41. Who here would have ever predicted that after what how lopsided the trade looked last season? I should follow my own advice and note that it's entirely possible Lilly will rebound, he's certainly not THAT bad, and Kielty will fall off the face of the earth again.
But whatever I'll just be called a Beane lover, nevermind that I buried this team's chances a week ago.
| By rocket on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 08:02 pm:|
The offense has shown a pulse the past few games,
but the lat 7 days the pitching has gone in the
dumper. Dead last over the last week with an ERA
of 7.28, with the strong hitting Sox in for 3
| By kevink on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:29 pm:|
This bagging on Beane is ridiculous to me.
We had 5 solid winning years and the players choked in the playoffs, not Beane. You can't win every year. This year is clearly a rebuilding year. Sure it would have been nice to stay competitive this year, but due to all the reasons that asch and I mentioned, it's not happening. Is Beane supposed to win the world series every year to be considered a good GM? Let's get real here. The best we could have hoped for this season was .500. Everything that could go wrong so far did, and we are way below .500. We are still on track for 2006 and 81 wins this season is still not out of reach. I would rather do what Beane did than to do what the Giants have done. When Bonds is finally done the giants are in deep shit. They have an ancient team and a huge debt load. They refused to rebuild through all this and will suffer for years, not to mention fan support will dwindle every year.
The A's are shit right now and yet I'm still HAPPY about the direction the team is headed in overall, and HAPPY with Billy Beane as my GM. He didn't go from genius to crap in 1 year!
| By threepeat on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:40 pm:|
This team is the creation of Beane. The team is his. The team is crap; therefore, Beane IS crap.
| By rocket on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:46 pm:|
Beane took the accolades from the fans, so now
he takes the heat from the fans. That is fanatics
expressing their opinions. From the penthouse to
the outhouse is a very descriptive phrase in
I wish we could catalog everything Sacto has ever written on this Forum (backing up to the gems he and I had back in the 2001 season) and we could make a short book...
I smell a New York times best seller...
| By rocket on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:52 pm:|
Would have to have one hell of a proof reader
to get it published.
| By jerryo1 on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:59 pm:|
" I wish we could catalog everything Sacto has ever written on this Forum"
Just read his last post. It will be the same as his first post, and every post in between.
| By chavvy03 on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 10:59 pm:|
Jerry....that is funny as hell!!!
I disagree about the Twins. Sure they're in a lower-payroll division than us or the AL East, but they are exemplars of how to win with a low budget, along with the A's (though not, ahem,this year) and the Marlins.
| By washfan on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:22 am:|
Hey Vinnie! Shut your greasy mouth boy!
| By washfan on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:36 am:|
I'm sure you all remember SactoD used to save all of his venemous vitriol for Uncle Art and Schott(Rightly so for Schott) but now Beane is his new punching bag.
Oh & BTW I stood next to the Banjo Man at the Fan Fest 05' during the Q & A with Swish, Kotsay, Kendall & Byrnes. Really nice guy & he kept my 2 y/o son pretty entertained. He and I were talking a bit and he actually commended Beane on his BOLD moves this off season....We were both in agreement that Huddy sealed his fate with that sign me to long term deal by whatever date or else statement he made. I guess he must have swayed since Sacto provided him a ducket and had his ear bent all-night long about what a sad sack of crap GM Beane is.
| By oakfan on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 01:25 am:|
I am just impressed that now SactoD is breaking up his rambling thoughts into mulitple paragraphs. Not that there is any reason for how they are broken up, but it is a little easier on the eyes.
| By oakchick on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 06:26 am:|
Lost in all this teeth-gnashing over yesterday's loss: I was looking at the box score and realized that the A's did not strike out even ONCE in the entire game. Randy Johnson did not even get a single strikeout, which was interesting.
Now I do not know what all this means, but I just thought it was weird that the A's did not strikeout, because that's what we usually do best.
| By kevink on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 08:02 am:|
oakchick, good point and it shows how overrated RJohnson is this year if he can't even strike out 1 Oakland A. His age is showing and he is not the dominant pitcher he once was.
Maybe. But he pitched a perfect game a year ago and, for the year, had an ERA below 3.
you know what sacto i am with you on that one tejada is a MUCH better player than kendall and a shortshop who can play like that is a rarer commodity than a catcher.
IMHO, i wish they never would have traded T Long to SD with Ramon. we should have fired macha! then kept Ramon and sent T Long with a pitcher in a package for kotsay.
oh well it's in the past
who knows if we'll win a game this week but i sure would like to see what dan johnson can do.
| By asch on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:19 pm:|
A pitcher with T. Long????? If that pitcher was Mulder or Hudson MAYBE they would have taken that. But then you all would have been crying about that.
The point of that deal is that we wanted Kotsay and they wanted Ramon - they took T.Long for pity to get the deal done.
They weren't going to accept T. Long and Rincon for Kotsay.
ok fair enough but kendall has not been as advertised so far. i know the guy is learning new pitchers and a new league but i mean come on not even ramon stunk this bad for the padres when he had his first year there! and pudge rodriguez certainly had no trouble helping the fish a WS. the guy has hardly thrown anybody out, hasn't hit for average, made several critical mental mistakes behind the plate and has no power. sorry but i'd take ramon over kendall any day right now. at least ramon knew how to go opp field and calm down our young pitchers. not sure what anyone is doing for our resident headcase haren. honestly i would like to see melhuse get more starts, the guy could be a starter on several teams in the AL.
| By asch on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 01:32 pm:|
Take it easy - hold up.
Kendall was NEVER supposed to hit for power.
He HAS handled the staff extremely well - are you kidding? Look at the majority of our starts? Look at Blanton's unreal starts up until the last 2? I would say he's calling some good games.
He is not throwing guys out, that's for sure, but there is a lot of stress in that position and when you are struggling at the plate.
Also, comparing a player going from AL to NL and NL to AL is not fair. It is MUCH easier to go to the NL where it's primarily a fastball league - than to the AL where there is a lot more junk.
I will be posting a long Kendall thought shortly. Take a peak at that.
| By washfan on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 01:40 pm:|
I would like to know what Kendall's "several" critical mental mistakes behind the plate are?
| By renobill on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 02:07 pm:|
Kendall is an absolute stud. I'm damn glad we have him.
| By rocket on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 02:14 pm:|
Ramon is having a pretty good start to 2005, .788
OPS to Kendalls horrible .589 OPS
OK, yes he wasn't supposed to hit for power. I agree.
One particualr mental mistake was a recent game where he threw to 2nd with runners at the corners on a double steal. it was a strikeout at the plate and he was late with the throw, allowing the run to score. why did he throw to second??
there are a few others, once i think of them i will post them here!
| By asch on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 03:13 pm:|
Was Chavey covering?
Was there a lefty up?
Was there a slower runner at second?
Would that have been the third out?
Those are a few questions to ask before you say it was a bad play. Kendall is a GREAT baseball guy, I am sure he had the right idea.
| By eyleenn on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 12:04 pm:|
FWIW, there was a tv graphic during the game last night showing that Kendall has blocked more balls in the dirt than any other catcher in the bigs.
| By asch on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 01:09 pm:|
ey, is that this year or for the last few years?
| By eyleenn on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 03:24 pm:|
I believe it was for this year.
Who the hell keeps stats like that? Somebody in the control truck made that up.
| By washfan on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 09:25 am:|
Even though I like Kendall I was not to impressed to see him do his best Jeremy G impersination. Slide Jason! Slide!