Help me understand...
OAFC BBS - All Topics: Archive: Help me understand...
I know I haven't lived in the Bay Area in a LONNNNNNNNNNNG time, 1994 to be exact. And I also realize this sight was started to fight to keep the A's in OAKLAND.
But would everyone be happier if they moved even FARTHER away?
Or, is it just the fact that they will be leaving Oakland altogether?
I'm sure if I still out there (I live in Indy), that I would feel differantly too.
When I lived out there, I sort of thought of the entire area as one-in-the-same. A melting pot, if you will.
I apologize if this thought process offends anyone, I just think if they do move, that 15 to 20 miles away is better that somewhere out of state.
Thanks for your time, A's fans. I'd love some feedback.
well...you've been reading and posting on this site for a long time...
if you haven't understood what this site stands for and why we don't feel it is just a matter of 20 miles...then you will never understand
there is a section just to talk A's baseball...if that is not enough then don't read the other stuff...
why is it so hard to understand that this site gives a voice and a space for those who feel they got treated as second class citizens, whether they are residents of Oakland or not...
and nobody here is stopping you from joining sites that are very happy with the relocation...all we ask is that you respect how we feel and don't try to make us out to be monsters just because we feel that way...
we have debated if we should pull the plug on this site and we may do just that if we see people can't live with the fact we will not join the Wolff/Fremont bandwagon.
Please CHILL Lil,
I'm not making ANYONE out to be monsters. Not at all. I was just asking about how everyone would feel if they moved (IF they ever do) to an EVEN farther distance away or possibly out of state.
I too, have an opinion (I want them to stay right where they are), but also don't want them leaving to a far distant location.
Do I NOT have the right to ask a question regarding this situation? Of course I do.
Please DO NOT read into my questions that I am happy with this (or condeming anyone elses opinion).
I have NO desire to join any other site. I enjoy the OAFC "family". Very much thank you.
Lil...Please don't even think about pulling the plug. As far as a ballpark location is concerned, we're only in the third inning, if that. Lots can still happen.
20 miles or 500 miles makes no difference to me. The proposed A'S move just plain blows.
Forgive me if I sounded irritated...but you must have noticed the constant badgering we get from folks trying to make us jump on their "it's only 20 mile" bandwagon.
Your post came at a time when the intolerance of a few bad characters has gone as far as making up false statements attributed to me on their site, for the sole purpose of discrediting and slandering our group of fans and yours truly.
These folks went as far as bringing ethnic and the race card into a post attributed to me, just so they could "respond" with their own racists views and vennon.
They try everything...from spamming to trolling and when they see they can't get away with that over here...they are now talking to themselves over there...
go figure if it makes any sense.
So...that is why I say...post on the A's baseball only and live with the fact we feel the move stinks of foul play or... move on.
The thing that bugs me about this whole ballpark process is the under handed display of the different parties and the fact the team ownership has effectively split the fan base. From the fans perspective this is never good. This started in the mid 90's after the return of the Raiders. Our elected officials who orchastrated the Raiders return didn't have the foresight to realize that their action would result in a reaction of the A's trying to leave if they didnt get a baseball only park. None of us posting here are elected official yet we realized that back in 97. When former Oakland City Manager Robert Bobb introduced the first ballpark concept in Oakland it was never embraced by the former owners Schott/Hoffman and recieved a tepid response from then Mayor Brown, probably because the team owners weren't receptive. Schott had visions of moving the A's to Santa Clara, when he realized he could'nt do that he sold. Granted 25 miles down the 880 corridor is closer than Las Vegas, but when you realize there are still avaiable sites in Oakland its somewhat of a slap in the face after 39 years of virtually free rent. Also the Bay Area traffic is a lot worse especially along 880 cooridor than it was in 94 the year you left. With virtually no transit options from a regional perspective the Fremont move would be a bad choice. A good percentage of us will probably not be attending games and the team is restructuring its fan base around the southbay. Good luck to them but I think they are taking a big risk and they can restructure it without me.
I just visited the Bay Area for a few days for work (after having lived in SF for 7 years). After spending significant time on 880 between OAK and SJC, I gotta tell ya, this new location is the stupidest thing since unsliced bread.
There's nothing between Oakland and San Jose other than nasty, skanky strip malls and the cars, cars, cars getting people to those darn strip malls. There is no soul, people, in Newark or anywhere else along that godforsaken highway, outside of Oakland.
The thing is that baseball prides itself on its authenticity: it's a historical game with heroes and villains, rooted in time like no other American sport. And when you try to recreate that overnight, with no historical or regional foundation, it's incongrous with who we are as people and as a larger culture.
Just like a trip to Vegas, where it's fun watching the bright lights and big facades, the buzz of a new ballpark in the middle of nowhere only lasts so long before we feel the need to return to who we are, which is people who require substance in their cultural diets. That substance, I feel, is right in the heart of downtown Oakland.
It's clear that the only ones benefiting from this move will be those who profit from it, despite its lack of authenticity -- just as in the case of the strip malls. And I'm sure the owners and everyone else with a hand in the pie feel that regional fan interest will support a team based anywhere. If you get enough people to visit the park just once or twice a year, the numbers are there.
But will there be a soul? Will there be a real fan base? Will the be a connection between a ballpark and a community? That's what comes to mind when we think of the Cubs, the Yankees, the Red Sox...teams that have integrated themselves into the fabric of a city, and thus the fabric our American lives.
Highway ballparks are completely devoid of such a connection. They're businesses first and foremost, and their primary objective is to simply make money for their owners. And they'll do so while giving a playful, token nod to something more meaningful, but clearly lacking, in hopes of keeping the short-attention fan stimulated enough to laugh a couple times and ask, at the end of the day, "that was great! so what's next!?"
If Oakland as a city is removed from the picture, and this team relocates to the middle of a corporate swamp, as is planned, the new ballpark will simply be an experience that, despite its bells and whistles, offers nothing more than a token nod to baseball and to America as we know it. It will be a theme park. A strip mall. Baseball lite. Baseballish.
Maybe this team belongs in Las Vegas after all. Think about it -- New York, Paris, Venice...they're very good at staging simulations of things that matter, and they make a lot of money doing so. That's all Lew Wolff and company are after, anyway, so why not just cut to the chase.
ssblip, you couldn't have said it better.
Truly an excellent post, ssblip. That really sums up what our opposition to the Fremont move is all about.
Please don't pull the plug on this site. Even though I don't contribute many posts I still enjoy reading whats going on the the real A's world.
I believe there is still some hope that Wolff will come to his senses and build the park in Oakland. There are still many problems to work out in fremont and it may actually not work. We can only pray to the baseball gods and hope the son of bitch selig drops dead from the crap he has inside.
You and this site are still needed.
Great another rant about me and my soulless neighbors. Yeah great post. "Highway ballparks are completely devoid of such a connection" you mean highway ballparks like the Oakland Coliseum?
Look there are plenty of legitimate reasons (some of which are outlined in your post) to be against the A's Fremont plans but the "no soul" as compared to the Coliseum and its industrial/freeway location isn't one of them.
As long as the A's stay in the Bay Area, I'll continue to remain a fan of theirs. Yes, it'll hurt being a long life Oaklander them moving just 25 miles south but rather have them stay here and at least have a baseball outlet that has actually won something here in the Bay Area, 4 championships...then to see those asses across the bay get what they really want which is the entire Bay Area market place to themselves.
If there is some legit proposed Oakland site that comes up in the next year or two, then I'll come out and support it as I and many A's fans did in May of 2002 when they had a Oakland City Hall meeting with HOK...but I think Wolff wants to get this Fremont park built near Silicon Valley and if this plan didn't have a big time money sponser behind it like it does with Cisco Systems, then I wouldn't think this project would have a chance...but since it does...I think the odds of it becoming a reality are decent.
Remember this ballpark's projection opening would be anywhere from 2010-2012 which means at the earliest, some dirt shoveling would happen next year probably at this time which would give the park two years to be built which is about the average of how long it takes to get a new park built the past decade...at the "latest", it'd be two or three years from now if the park's date to open is 2012.
Still a long ways for anything to happen, but if Wolff/Cisco really want to get this thing built in Fremont...don't see it not happening eventually.
Sure, the Oakland Coliseum isn't downtown, but it's still located in a major city with great public transportation. The Coliseum location is still miles ahead of the Fremont site.
The point is, if the A's have to build a ballpark, as they maintain they have to, then why not build it in the best possible location. How is the Fremont site an improvement over the Coliseum site? It's not. It's a step backwards. They are exchanging one suburban site with great access and great public transportation, located in the geographic center of the Bay Area, for an inaccessible suburban site hemmed in by Highway 880 on the East, and the Fremont Wetlands on the West in the Southern end of the Bay Area. Makes no sense!
The logical location for this ballpark is Downtown Oakland. You have the central location to go along with great public transit and all the amenities of a major city. The A's could have a ballpark with real character like Fenway Park or Wrigley Field if they build it in Downtown Oakland.
A ballpark in Fremont off of 880 has no appeal to me. Everyone I've spoken to feels the same way. Many people are turned off by this relocation. The A's saw a drop in attendance last year precisely because of the policies of Mr. Wolff. For the first time since the A's have been in Oakland, I did not attend a single game last year. I know many people who did the same thing. I will not attend another game until this Fremont relocation talk is put to rest and Lew Wolff commits to staying in Oakland. We've talked it over as a family, and from my wife, to my daughters, we've all agreed not to ever attend a game in Fremont. Lew Wolff has managed to alienate many great life-long Oakland A's fans with his policies. He's taken a great deal of joy from our family. He will once again see the results of his boneheaded policies in the continuing reduction in attendance.
Mr. Oakland is right, this is a major step backwards for the franchise. They only thing they are improving is the outfield bleachers with this idea. He keeps telling us improved fan exeperience, yet I feel all these improvement will be fan annoyances. To echo ssblip, this move is souless, as souless as anything I have ever seen. Wolf has some of the most passionate fans around, but does he encourage them, no. In fact, its as if he doesn't really want fans. Since his ballyhoo announcement, have yet to see one advertisement for our baseball team...on television, in the paper or anywhere. While the SF giants, I can spit and hit a billboard, etc. of your SF giants.
I was tailgating in the parking lot of the coliseum yesterday, It dawned on me, what are we really gaining with this new ballpark? Nothing, what are the fans going to lose.....another steril sporting experience...
Oh by the way...Isn't the Fremont only crowd getting abit like their much dispised OAFC? Gawd, the fake diamon lil post did me in. I was going to respond, but I decided it wasn't worth the effort. They are so in love with Wolf, its really kind of sick, and marine layer, I just hope this whole this blows up in his face, the sanctimonious prick. I use to admire his site, but his head is so far up Wolf's grey bushy arse, I cannot even stomach to read it anymore. I love how if they found a 100 acre Ohlone indian burial site right below the proposed site, he'll find away that it can be mitigated.
Diamond Lil- Keep it going, I want to be one of the first to post when his wolffland starts to implode...
I've seen at least 2 TV ads for the A's in the past few weeks. They are funny, but there is no voice of Bill King saying "Holy Toledo" at the end. Makes me sad.
ws9: to answer your question: no, I don't like the Oakland Coliseum location either, frankly. I feel that it's lacking in proximity to other services and walkable businesses, and it's less than ideal.
That said, it's in the City of Oakland. There's BART access and highway access. People can hop aboard a BART train anywhere in the Bay Area and get the stadium in no time. Anyone can catch a game, even if they don't own a car. While this isn't downtown, which obviously would be my preference, I think Fremont is a worst-case scenario because it'll just be another roadside parking lot with chaser lights and a ball game in the middle.
No offense to you or to anyone else in suburban America, but despite how wonderful the schools are and how much more affordable the homes may be -- perfectly fine arguments for living in the burbs -- you can't create authenticity overnight. If American baseball is about anything, it's about authenticity. And that's why Oakland and the ball club need each other.
By all means keep this site going.
The A's are not going anywhere,certainly not to fremont.
The A's belong in/to Oakland,and they belong downtown.It can happen.
A's are following in the steps of sports, corporatizing everything....look at the SuperBowl, it's not a spectacle anymore, it's not a game any more, it's a public selling party. Everything is now sanitized, the game is watered down. It isn't getting better, the true fans are the blue collar guys who pay 10-15 bucks to see a game, we can't afford the 50 buck a game tickets.
Wolff and the Marlins are the last teams in MLB to get a "new" park. Wolff wants to join the frat bad and he'll do what it takes to join the frat. He wants a residential/retail village to help offset the costs to build the park, High Street Village. He needed a huge plot of land, he found it in Fremont, is there any other large unused parcel up and down 880? He is doing whatever it takes to get corporate dollars and guaranteed season ticket sales in his pocket.....thus his aloofness towards the question of no BART stop will be there, remember his High Street proposal mandated a stop somewhere off 66th I believe....this no need for BART is basically a slap to all Oakland/north east bay A's fans, if you want to come, you bust your ass down 880 during rush hour to see a game, I have corporate types driving 5 minutes up 880 from SC or Cisco to come, I don't need you.....that is basically what he's saying with this move.
Unless he gets that train station built that connects the Coliseum to Pacific Commons, I'd say your post just about sums it up.
Check out the cost for a one way ticket from Jack London Square. $9.00. So for fans from the East Bay, their going to need to shell out $18.00 (how many of those will you make?) just to get down there. Not to mention what it will cost to get into wolfland, I may start to approach $100 per person to watch a ball game. Is this really better, than what we have? I don't think the train station is enough of a olive branch to the Oakland fans. I truly think wolff is willing to abandon everyone north of Hayward, for silicon valley. Thats why this move will kill off this team. Welcome to Tampa Bay west.
I wonder how much parking will cost at Cisco or will there be free "mall parking"? I also wonder how much parking at the Coli will be this year. I rarely drive, I'd rather spend the $ on an overpriced beer.
Parking was $15 at the Coli last Sunday.
That's 1.5 overpriced beers!
The train ticket price round trip even at that price will probably still be less than the cost of parking. But that really is the whole point of Cisco Field and all the new parks, suck every dollar possible out of the fan. Those that can't afford it can watch the game on tv.
I had a bit of a revelation just now, watching a news story about the 49ers possible move to Santa Clara. Whether the Niners move or not means nothing to me because I don't go to the games. Since I only watch on TV, it doesn't matter to me if they play in SF or Santa Clara.
Maybe that's a clue to why there hasn't been more of an uproar about the A's moving to Fremont. Maybe the only people who care where the A's play are the people who go to games. The rest just shrug their shoulders.
I've spoken with some A's fans who do go to games -- who take BART -- who have been supportive of the possible move to Fremont, or at least haven't oppposed it. They tell me they are hopeful that a BART station will be built close enough, or that some other solution will be found for reasonable public transportation, by the time the park opens. Others just shrug and say, "it's gonna happen, so I'll deal when it happens."
It's unfortunate that many (most?) people are so passive about things (not just the A's) until it's too late...
Eyleenn, the ease of attending a football game is not as critical as in baseball because they only play one game a week mostly on Sundays. Baseball plays so many midweek home games that convenience and easy access are critically important. If the Niners possible move to Santa Clara this would have much less of an impact on their fanbase than an A's move to Fremont.
well in 2009 it will be the last yr of a 15 yr lease for the Raiders, now they have been extra quiet on the sue or move front but how many hear expect this carpet bagger team to stay put?
hm,,,,,,,,,,,,,, why dont we just do an anaheim and tear down mount davis (when the Raiders leave that is in 2009) put the bleachers back with waterfalls ect and get on with living in a great baseball park without mt davis?
cost of new park 700 million , cost of recontruction 150 million? Bart is there so is a parking lot, just clear hegenburger and put nice restaruants and new hotels up where the old ones are or where, this area is so ready to explode to being modernized , if only the Raiders would leave lets hope.
The Raiders have a 17 year lease until 2011.
Someone please help me understand why there are not more people who are going crazy about the Oakland Athletics’ move to Fremont and why some people go with the “it’s only 20 miles away” routine. The A’s have a very rich history in Oakland and it is absurd that Wolff wants to move the team. Only the Atlanta Braves and New York Yankees have won more division championships than the Oakland Athletics and only the Yankees have won more World Championships and league pennants during the span that the A’s have existed in Oakland from 1968. Why do people fail to recognize the grand history of the Oakland Athletics? No one would ever move the Yankees to Buffalo and rename them the 5 Burroughs Yankees of Buffalo so why is it acceptable to move the Oakland Athletics and rename them the Silicon Valley A’s of Fremont or the San Jose A’s of Fremont or whatever they’ll name it; Wolff is already quoted as saying he does not know the name of the team yet but it will include “of Fremont” drawing comparisons to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. Worst of all the new stadium will be located in a horrible area and is not even going to be a stadium; Cisco Field will be more like a strip mall that also has some 30,000 seats for everyone but true Athletics fans to enjoy. It is an embarrassment to the city of Oakland and real Oakland Athletics fans to have the team moved to a place that still needs to be introduced to the rest of the country. I am an Oakland Athletics fan, much of why I love the A’s is because they are the Oakland Athletics and I love that they are Oakland’s team. I take pride in saying my team is from Oakland and not San Francisco let alone Fremont or the Silicon Valley. I’d hate to jump ship but if they A’s move to Fremont I’m going to have to join the rest of the numbskulls in supporting the San Francisco Giants, I’m going to have to be like the rest of those suckers and support an awful franchise. But, Wolff and the A’s have left me no choice. First they announce the move to Fremont and partnership with Cisco, then they purposefully wait until Ron Washington is offered another job so that they would'nt look as bad for going against the consensus of the team in support for Wash to become the manager just so they can hire Bob Geren, a guy with no experience who just so happens to have been the best man at Billy Beane’s second wedding. If the A's move, I will have divorced my ties to being an A's fan and look for a second wedding with a new team across the bay, unfortunately. All that’s left is for them to move and when they do I will not need yet another reason to stop supporting a team that does business in such a shady way. Don't even get me started on the closing of the whole third deck and Mt. Davis section. The A's did not get 2 million people to go see the A's last year for the first time in many years and I do not believe it is a coincidence that it was 2006 that saw way less seats available. Wolff messed up there, or did he? he is probably making more money now because fans buy more expensive tickets with prices that were raised from last year anyway.
But for now let’s enjoy our Athletics in Oakland. As usual they have great young and up-n-coming talent that will see big money with another team when they are allowed to leave.
Let’s Go Oakland!
At least part of the reason the 3rd deck was closed is that the A's have to share revenue with the city of Oakland after attendance passes 2 million. With those seats unavailable, they CAN'T go over 2 million, so they get to keep ALL the money!
Wow, excellent observation eyleenn. Except for you're missing the whole point, but it does not suprise me judging by some of your other posts on this site. I was making a point that it is absurd to move a team with such a great history and tradition. You do not need to remind me that people like Wolff are in it for the money, that sports as I once knew it has come to be a money driven embarassment that it is with teams like the A's moving away to gain corporate money with no care of the history of the team or it's fans or teams like the Chicago White Sox who start their games at 7:11 instead of the conventional 7:05 because they have money ties with 7/11 stores, I understand that too many people do not care and won't mind seeing the A's move because they don't think it's a big deal. Atleast there are some people like MrOakland and Raider John who can see the truth behind Wolff and the greed that is occuring.
Oh and Eyleenn, awesome, they can keep the money and not have to give it to the city. I know it's hard to deal with the City of Oakland because often times they act like they don't want their sports teams in town, but once again you're talking about money and I'm talking about how it's crazy to be thinking of moving the team and changing it's name.
OH AND THATS JUST GREAT THAT WOLFF IS DOING ALL HE CAN TO MAKE IT SEEM LIKE NO ONE GOES TO THE GAMES. APPARENTLY, BY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING HE DOESN'T WANT PEOPLE TO GO. THAT'S HORRIBLE!
Also, one of the reasons you don't hear anyone from the City of Oakland complain is because Wolff has corrupted them. Why do you think he has Dellums sitting behind the dugout? It's not because Wolff is interested in cutting a deal to build the ballpark in Oakland. He also wined and dined Dick Spees before he broke up the Oakland civic group headed by Spees which was working on the Oakland ballpark issue. Spees was also seen sitting behind the dugout with Wolff before he was dismissed. Beware when you see Oakland officials sitting behind the dugout with Wolff. It usually means Oakland is about to get screwed. And now, we hear the Councilman Larry Reid who's district includes the Coliseum is being investigated for possible corruption. Reid has basically thrown his hands up and is conveniently resigned to the A's leaving Oakland. No wonder we haven't heard a peep from Oakland officials as one of Oakland's institutions is in the process of abandoning the city. The Big Bad Wolff has obviously been working his devious charm. This is outrageous!
That's the same Larry Reid who said awhile back that he would "stake his career" that the A's would not leave the Coliseum.
hatswithas, I quote you: "Don't even get me started on the closing of the whole third deck and Mt. Davis section. The A's did not get 2 million people to go see the A's last year for the first time in many years and I do not believe it is a coincidence that it was 2006 that saw way less seats available. Wolff messed up there, or did he? he is probably making more money now because fans buy more expensive tickets with prices that were raised from last year anyway."
I thought I was backing up YOUR observation that the A's drew fewer than 2 million.
I don't know what your point is, you're right about that.
Thinking back to the Dellums sighting with Wolff behind the dugout, it makes me wonder why Wolff would feel the need to entertain the Mayor. Could it be for public relations reasons with Oaklanders? Could it be to send a message to the politicians in Fremont to get them moving on the ballpark issue? Or could it be to keep Dellums pacified while Oakland loses one of its greatest institutions? Is Wolff making sure that Dellums doesn't sharpen his "pick" and start swinging away. After all, Mr. Wolff is very concerned about the city of Oakland and its "priorities." I'm sure Mr. Wolff doesn't want to wake up Mayor Dellums from his slumber as he quietly slides the Oakland franchise 20 miles down highway 880.
If You've noticed,Mr. Wolff has not completley burned His bridges with Oakland.He's smarter than that.The fact that He has not yet completed the land lease purchase in Fremont,or has yet to turn in a development application,says a lot.
I still think that it is just as likely that a ballpark is built in the north lot of the coliseum
as it is to be built within smelling distance of the salt ponds in fremont.
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